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From: AS on 9 Mar 2010 12:41
We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
Good fun on a damp day!

Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
so. A's ball was found and duly played.

The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
if it was found.

Any thoughts?

AS
From: M L Wadsworth on 10 Mar 2010 01:46

"AS" <as(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:yLvln.260741$_W6.169159(a)newsfe30.ams2...
> We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
> shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter). Good
> fun on a damp day!
>
> Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
> not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
> disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
> provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
> so. A's ball was found and duly played.
>
> The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but, having
> declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball if it was
> found.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> AS

Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.

I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.

What part of the world are you in?



The format is, of course, not covered by the Rules of Golf so we have to get
as close as we can to them.



After both players have made their second strokes, A's ball is in play but
may become a lost ball.

B's ball is also play.



The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
point.

A provisional ball may not be played, because the side has a ball which is
not lost (B's ball).



If A's ball is found before B's ball is played by A, then the side may
select either ball to complete the hole.

If A's ball is not found, the side has no option but to continue with B's
ball.



Only had there been a possibility that both balls were lost or out of bounds
after the respective second strokes, could a provisional ball have been
played.

The side could then play only one provisional ball and would need to decide
before going forward to search, whether A should play a provisional ball
from where B made his second stroke or whether B should play a provisional
ball from where A made his second stroke, effectively deciding then, which
ball to select if both balls were lost or out of bounds.



If neither of the original balls is found in bounds, the provisional ball
would become the ball in play.

If only one of the original balls is found in bounds, that becomes the
(selected) ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned.

If both of the original balls are found in bounds, then the provisional ball
must be abandoned and the side must select one of the two original balls
with which to complete the hole.



To rule in any other way, effectively gives the side further choices: play
B's ball, find and play A's ball or ignore A's ball and continue with the
provisional ball or one of the provisional balls if one was played for each
original ball.



In the situation you describe, when A played B's ball he was not playing a
provisional ball even if he announced it as such. The side had effectively
selected B's ball to continue play with and A's ball was no longer in play.





With any format which is not covered by the Rules of Golf (Greensomes, Texas
Scrambles, etc), if it is going to be played as a competition, the Committee
needs to set down what adaptations of the Rules of Golf are to apply.





HTH,



Malcolm


From: Paul Schmitz-Josten on 10 Mar 2010 04:09
M L Wadsworth in <EM6dnS9awsi23QrWnZ2dnUVZ7oydnZ2d(a)bt.com>:

>Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
>before.
>
>I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
>
>What part of the world are you in?

I don't want to speak for AS but from the news path he might live in the
Netherlands.

Chapman Foursome ("Vierer") is also the term used in Germany.
Furtheron we know the variations "classic foursome" (only one ball per team
as covered by the RoG) and "foursome with selected drive" (ball selection
after both have teed off, "greensome" in English).

>The format is, of course, not covered by the Rules of Golf so we have to get
>as close as we can to them.
>
>After both players have made their second strokes, A's ball is in play but
>may become a lost ball.
>
>B's ball is also play.
>
>The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
>point.
>
>A provisional ball may not be played, because the side has a ball which is
>not lost (B's ball).
<snip>
>In the situation you describe, when A played B's ball he was not playing a
>provisional ball even if he announced it as such. The side had effectively
>selected B's ball to continue play with and A's ball was no longer in play.

Thank you for freshening up my memory - I didn't get it straight by myself.

Does this imply that provisionals are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?


Anyway, when playing _and_selecting_ the provisional ball the team will be
punished with stroke&distance, making it a costly choice to abandon the
"good" ball (B's ball in the example) unless it is in a very bad lie, for
example in the rough or a water hazard.


And while we talk about non-standard games on the course, look at this:
<http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7402115.html>
It's a US patent!

C<huckling>iao,

Paul
From: JohnT on 10 Mar 2010 07:13
On Mar 9, 12:41 pm, AS <a...(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
> shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
> Good fun on a damp day!
>
> Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
> not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
> disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
> provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
> so. A's ball was found and duly played.
>
> The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
> having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
> if it was found.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> AS

Malcolm has given a very thorough reply. It really comes down to "Can
the side have extra choices?" In your scenario, were A & B committed
to an honest process? If the provisional ball was an absolute corker
and finished two feet from the hole, would they have even looked for
the original ball? If the provisional ball was a good straight shot
into the fairway, and when they looked for the original ball and found
it in a unplayable position, would they have taken the medicine and
abandoned the provisional ball and proceeded with the original in the
unplayable position? There is a good reason why the ruling bodies
cannot rule on these (fun and enjoyable) variations of the game.

JohnT
From: Paul Schmitz-Josten on 10 Mar 2010 11:42
JohnT in
<d817b265-c17d-46b7-9dfb-1ca660ae956f(a)x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>:

>It really comes down to "Can
>the side have extra choices?" In your scenario, were A & B committed
>to an honest process? If the provisional ball was an absolute corker
>and finished two feet from the hole, would they have even looked for
>the original ball? If the provisional ball was a good straight shot
>into the fairway, and when they looked for the original ball and found
>it in a unplayable position, would they have taken the medicine and
>abandoned the provisional ball and proceeded with the original in the
>unplayable position?

IMO, this is nothing special for a foursome. The same requirement of an
"honest process" applies to any provisional ball - you'll always have to
abandon it when the original re-appears, and the price for "not looking"
(which is perfectly permissible) is stroke&distance, also in a singles
game.

Instead, I'll cling to Malcolms thoughts:

|The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
|point.

I understand that, after both balls have been played, there is only room
for the decision between balls A and B, and the decision to play the
provisional can only be done after that.

Only if _both_ balls may be lost or OOB, two provisionals are permitted.

Alas, we'll have to keep in mind that there are no official rules for this
detail, only common sense and practice. Any CC may provide their own rules
of competition if they want.

Ciao,

Paul, CC of a greensome tournament last November (without RoCs)
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